Someone from church was chatting to me recently about her experience of speaking in tongues ('experience' it seems, is the most appropriate word to use.) A number of years ago, she had been attending a charismatic church where, despite what the Bible teaches, it was commonplace to have everyone speaking in tongues at once without interpretation. My friend saw everyone else speaking in tongues, so decided to try for herself, that is, start babbling away nonsensically. She now freely admits she didn't have the gift, nor know what she was doing, but rather was just following the crowd with her incoherent noises.I wonder how many others there were just making noises because everyone else was?
There is a serious question this raises for me, which is provided we aren't cessationists, do we have a place within our regular meetings where if someone did have the gift of tongues and an interpreter present, or had a word of prophecy, there is liberty for that to occur? The closest thing I can think of that occurs at Unichurch is we are small enough to hear back from people about specific answers to congregational prayer. Has your church practically, even if not by conviction forbidden speaking in tongues?
You would need to clarify, biblically, what you mean by tongue speaking before I could answer your question :)
ReplyDeleteDave, I'm not quite ready to give a definition of speaking in tongues. But from what I read in the Bible I think the phenomenon is something more than just understanding and being able to speak a foreign language (which is what I've heard most commonly from evangelicals).
ReplyDeleteI think this because someone with the gift of tongues may not have the gift of interpretation (1 Cor 12:10, 12:30, 14:13). Now it may include knowing and speaking French. Yet at the least it could also certainly mean that it is speaking fluently in a foreign language without previously knowing the language, but I'm not sure. Either way, to me it says it's not just being "able to speak Swedish at a third grade level" which is how our friend Gordo, in his inimitable way likes to prove that he has the gift of tongues.
Now I've never seen this particular gift in action. Partly because those I've seen who would claim to have such a gift don't speak it with interpretation (1 Cor 14:13), don't speak one or at most two at a time, each in turn and with interpretation (1 Cor 14:26), and thus certainly aren't doing it in love (1 Cor 14:1).
But regardless of the abuse this gift gets, in some ways I think we are too rigid in our Sunday meetings. We have practically banned speaking in tongues. How to have room for this were it to occur properly is another matter. I have questions, not answers.
I'm beginning to think about prophecy, which is where I see this discussion more likely applied, prophecy - maybe not in predicting the future, but speaking the word of God in terms that are then weighed for truth.
Izaac,
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting that you label people who think tongue speaking is 'other language' speaking as evangelicals and then there is everyone else. If you come to a different conclusion does that mean you are not evangelical?? :)
I can't see how this gift is anything more than other language speaking. It may be nice to think that it is more than that but I'm not sure any more than that could be justified from Scripture.
Carson's 'Showing the Spirit' book is an excellent resource in studying 1 Cor 12-14. It is well worth a read and digest.
SO, I would think that our church does not forbid speaking in tongues (your initial question) but neither do I see I need to stop or put on the run sheet 'time for speaking in tongues'.
There are heaps of questions that flow out of prophecy - how is different from preaching? Does everyone prophecy? Prophesying with the head covered? Enjoy that one!!
Enjoy figuring out prophecy!!
Okay Dave, you've caught me making generalisations. Let me confirm for the record that it is not your definition of speaking in tongues that defines you as an evangelical. However, I maintain the most prominent understanding of tongue-speaking by evangelicals is (as it seems is espoused by the 'evangelical pope' Don Carson) that if you learnt French in high school then you have the gift of tongues. I happen to agree. And therefore we do allow it in church when we have visitors from overseas.
ReplyDeleteYet I would also disagree, because the Biblical definition is broader. Having not read Carson on 1 Cor 12-14, I cannot offer an opinion of his opinion. At this stage I can only reflect on a plain reading of Scripture, which to me suggests (while not discounting learning French in high school) that there is something altogether weirder going on. That is, it is possible to speak in tongues and not be able to interpret. I have never met a person who spoke French and English who couldn't at least understand what they were saying in both languages. Surely one would not pray for the power to interpret (1 Cor 14:13) but the power to learn another tongue (language). Yet it is something that can be controlled. They already know the native language because they can choose instead to prophesy (1 Cor 14:5). I also think that when the gift first arrives in Acts it would not be anything special at all, if people were just speaking languages they already knew. Tongue-speaking includes knowing foreign languages, but not just through buying a French to English dictionary but the immediate speaking of a previously unknown language (?like the Matrix downloading files into the brain.)
My standard position is not to disagree with people who know more about the Bible than me whom I trust. Don Carson (and yourself) included. But over and above that I want to appeal to a plain reading of Scripture. I think it's convenient to limit speaking in tongues to simple language learning because it discounts the miraculous.
I am however, willing to be corrected.
Also I know very little about prophecy until I prepare my MYC elective on it with Tracey. However I can say for certain that prophecy has much crossover with preaching, but that at some point it's different. What that point is, is another matter. But it's definitely different.
ReplyDeleteOn further reflection of your last post, I think speaking in tongues is most likely, simply a foreign language. This would therefore mean it could include both learning French at school, as well as speaking fluent French without any prior knowledge of the language (except perhaps for watching a few episodes of Madeline.)
ReplyDeleteHey mate,
ReplyDeleteOf course it is possible to speak in tongues and not interpret just don't expect to be able to bring that type of behaviour to the gathering of believers. This seems to be the explicit statement of Paul in 1 Cor 14.
Paul doesn't seem to be as hung up on the question of what language he is talking about as we do - our question is it another language, angelic language, spirit language - Paul avoids the question and his refrain throughout is crystal clear, at least it is to me - do what builds up the church. This leads him to say that prophecy builds up more than tongue speaking. Therefore pursue prophecy more than tongues (eagerly desire the greater spiritual gifts) but all this has to be done in love (14:1 Pursue love and all of ch 13 for that matter!).
Prophecy seems to be the declaration of the word of God both formally (in preaching) and informally over supper, at bible study, meeting up one to one, etc. They are the moments when you say something from the Scriptures that ministers to a person in a way that perhaps you never intended or that you fully intended!
And mate, healthy disagreement is a good thing. It forces us to keep considering what Scripture says not to rest easy in our own opinions!! :)