At this stage (ignoring my doctrine lessons on what constitutes 'church') I see YG as a structure which serves the main gathering. That is, YG is not the main thing and is not church. Were we not meeting immediately before the bigger gathering, then I might have a different take.
Because of when we meet, I feel its important to read what we will be later studying together in church. It won't be necessary to read, interpret and apply the passage of Scripture in its fulness during YG, because parts of that will be done by the preacher. Our goal in the YG study is not to simply contrast with the 'fun' games bit, but in an engaging way to introduce the Bible passage and how to read it, and transition into the main gathering. It's a chance to take a few steps back from where the sermon begins and build a method for reading the Bible. Also, hopefully questions will be raised so that we will together be interested listeners as the sermon is delivered in church. I am also working hard at creating a culture of increased engagement and reflection on God's word during church. There is some deep theology (mostly unconscious) driving these thoughts. But that's where I'm at in my thinking.
Furthermore, I remember from a ministry training day with Bruce Linton, being encouraged (and convinced) to make every YG game intentional and related to the big idea of the Bible study. I like the concept, but I'm not sure if it applies in this situation. Now I don't want to contribute to the perception of some of the youth groupers that there is the fun bit and then a Bible bit, but we gather together as God's people around his word. That happens as we transition by beginning to study the Bible at the end of YG and then into church. Games in our situation are much like supper at church. A chance to be intentional, but important for the opportunity to simply share in a bit of life together. If it dovetails well with the study, that's great (just like talking to people after church about what we've learnt) but I'm not convinced that there needs to be an intention over and above getting to know one another. However I'm still just getting to know the YG crew and maybe that's as far as my intention is at the moment. Perhaps as we know one another better there will be more opportunity for intentional teaching all the time.
I am enjoying leading youth for the first time. Not as scary as I first thought. Thankfully, I think I've avoided the amateur error of trying to be too cool, thanks in most part to the consistent reminders from Sarah that I'm a complete dag.
These thoughts are a bit undercooked and developing slowly...
These thoughts are a bit undercooked and developing slowly...
Ooh. Nice new design.
ReplyDeleteWhile I feel somewhat convicted by Linton's thinking (and that of others from that model) and want to see young people sit under God's word etc... and I'm a big fan of the YouthSurge model of relational bible based discipleship focused youth ministry...
I can't help but think back to my days in youth group and how much I appreciated the pointless fun prior to church. I don't think that was a bad model.
When we came to Brisbane and our youth group consisted of small group bible studies and then church all on one day with no fun stuff I died a little on the inside.
And games with a message always come across as contrived or like the message has been shoehorned in where it doesn't belong... like let's play "exodus" when what we really mean is bullrush... hey, Moses was left in bullrushes, and the running across the field is like the parting of the sea...
ReplyDeleteYeah, there is a directly proportional relationship between the age of the group you're leading and the shoehorning of the games into loose biblical themes. It worked great with young primary kids.
ReplyDeleteNow I too remember the fun of youth group. But then after some of my experiences in Sydney I've seen a heavier BIble content (and increased biblical literacy) done really really well, fun and all. So while I have very fond memories of my youth group days, there are some mixed emotions in hindsight (but mostly thankfulness)
I've been in plenty of groups that have done Bible well, and none have pulled the same number of people into church as the Sunday FM/Sunday at Seven combo.
ReplyDeleteI think we need to realise that sometimes kids and teenagers just want to have fun, and it's not a bad thing to associate that fun with church and Christianity and older Christian role models.
If youth group isn't church and the only thing that makes you think it isn't is when you meet then there is something not quite right, I think.
ReplyDeleteI'm assuming if you met on a Friday night and did exactly the same thing, you would still not call it church? Whether or not you call it church depends totally on what you do when you meet together? And if the youth have church back to back (that is youth 'church' then evening 'church') then is that a bad thing? One is probably more 'age-appropriate' in how things are done I would assume but not presume. Perhaps we are afraid of using the word 'church' because of all that 'youth' associate with it today but, theologically, it may be the best word to use. I don't know 'kids these days' :)
I guess you want to think about what the purpose of your youth group is - if it's purely about transitioning to evening 'church' then your or if it is about discipling youth in Christ or if it is something else all together.
Yes, perhaps I am expressing some of my own confusion about what constitutes church, and the implications of when we meet.
ReplyDeleteBut I think the 'when' we have YG rightly has many implications. Firstyl, there is a sense where the earthly expression of the heavenly gathering is only limited by having at least 2 Christians. Yet I think my point about food together after our gathering is helpful. That is, we don't say, we've finished church (the structured service), and now stay around for the next church gathering as we have morning tea together. The sharing of food is an extension and expression of what we've just done in studying God's word together.
Now provided your definition of church includes some form of prayer and study of the scriptures, I don't think its a problem if this doesn't occur at morning tea, (though it rightly often does). Its all part of the one gathering.
So with YG as church, its more than simply the label we apply. It would well be appropriate to not read the Bible or pray one week, to achieve other goals, because we then go and pray and read the BIble in our formal gathering. Whereas I can't think of any good reason not to do those things in the formal gathering. Now I'm not attaching hearing God's word exclusively to preaching. But surely there's a difference between some blokes from church coming around to watch the Star Wars Trilogy and what we would define as church.
Now were we to meet on a different night, I think we would do things dramatically different, for example we wouldn't confuse gathering God's people to watch Star Wars with the gathering of God's people around his word. We would have more specific leadership in place, we would have independent goals of discipleship. Now its not that these things don't exist as YG stands, but many of them are more attached to the formal gathering.
So someone in here is my point. Perhaps best expressed in the terms you used;
"I'm assuming if you met on a Friday night and did exactly the same thing, you would still not call it church?"
Yes, but we would not do exactly the same thing.
"And if the youth have church back to back (that is youth 'church' then evening 'church')"
I don't feel comfortable about saying when the band is there before church we have 'band church' and then when some people don't stay for supper we have 'Food-lovers church'. That is, its all about what you do when you meet together, and things that run consecutively have different goals to gatherings running independently.
"Perhaps we are afraid of using the word 'church' because of all that 'youth' associate with it today but, theologically, it may be the best word to use."
To be sure, I'm not avoiding it for negative connotations. I am definitely arguing that youth group is church, but only as an aspect of evening church.
"I guess you want to think about what the purpose of your youth group is - if it's purely about transitioning to evening 'church' then your or if it is about discipling youth in Christ or if it is something else all together."
It is about discipling youth, in the understanding that in 1/2 an hours time (at evening church) we will be hearing God's word explained in detail, to which conversations begun (or maybe not) will continue.
Okay, so maybe our goals with YG aren't clear. But those of the formal gathering are. And we want to complement them. Thus maybe our goal is "To complement the goals of the formal gathering."
Thoughts?
Still got some questions:
ReplyDeleteSo if I'm hearing you correctly then:
* youth group is a gathering of people before you do 'evening' church for half an hour (seems like a very short time span, if I have understood correctly)?
* It is an aspect of your church time that is exclusively for youth? Just like supper after church (not saying supper is youth exclusive)?
* And it is about discipling youth?
I hear what you are saying about 'when' you meet and the difference it makes but why wouldn't you do what you would do if you met on a Friday on a Sunday? 'We wouldn't do exactly the same thing' I think Im keen to hear your arguments as to why not?
So, youth group is not a separate church?
Do you think it would better serve the purpose of discipleship if it met at a different time or if it had more time on a Sunday?
I'm thinking of when Carlo had youth on a Sunday arvo before church before they moved it to Fri night. It was a separate 'church' with its own preaching program and going back to back with 715 church. Mind you I'm sure it got changed to Friday for a good reason :)
This is a stream of consciousness rather than a well thought out response.
By 'in half an hour', I meant, 'starting in half an hour'.
ReplyDeleteFor us, I think I'm thinking about youth group as the start of the gathering. It is specifically for youth, just like some people might regularly gather together before church to have a coffee.
Some context;
1. We meet in a school hall and don't have access whenever we want I want to a building so there's difficulty in meeting at another time. This is why we started as a Sunday group.
2. We're small. We would potentially gather fewer people meeting at another time.
Now here's my reason for not doing the same thing as if we were a stand alone youth group church; I want the youth to love the formal gathering. That's it. I want them to love it; gathering together with God's people to sing, pray and study God's word. Now in our society (which won't change any time soon) the predominant way this happens is thankfully every week, in a formal meeting time on Sundays. There is absolutely no reason by definition that this can't occur with a youth group church. But if (as it stands) by reason of practicality we need to meet immediately before evening church, if we were to run as an independent gathering, I think we communicate something about the larger church formal gathering. We would be saying;
1. It isn't for you. You youth need to run your own thing because we'll neglect you the rest of the time.
2. It is different because Youth Group is fun, church is boring. Get used to it.
3. You aren't part of the wider church. You have your own church, then you are a visitor to this formal gathering which is the church of everyone else.
4. Other insightful things I haven't thought of yet...
Now,
"Do you think it would better serve the purpose of discipleship if it met at a different time or if it had more time on a Sunday?"
Yes and no. Generally the more times you can meet together the better. But i think there are lots of aspects of many formal gatherings which make it difficult for the younger crew to enjoy. So I would culturally still want to find the best way to make them feel part of a bigger gathering, thus our youth group I am seeing as 'the start of the gathering'. Also, setting up as a stand alone church, which you would then assume need not necessarily fellowship with other groups, would also communicate each of the above things.
While I have become a part of this existing structure, I am starting to think it has great benefits over a separate youth church structure. Now, that too can have its advantages, but I think long term it's better to associate with the wider gathering than simply the youth group.
I have a feeling that every Sunday YG's big question is, "How can we have a less Sunday-centric contact with the young punks?" Whereas every non-Sunday YG's big question is, "How can we get more attached to the bigger (generally Sunday) church where these punks can grow for a lifetime?"
Thanks for answering the questions mate!
ReplyDeleteIt's a tough gig getting a youth group off the ground and giving it some healthy momentum so hats off to you.
I think your last couple of 'punk' questions are good. The struggle begins at the other end as well i.e. transitioning to youth group for kids church and then transitioning from youth group to evening church. There is lots of issues there for families. Especially as the oldest child transitions to youth but younger siblings still in kids church and they still want to go to church as family. More to say on this one, but suffice to say it is complex!
We have Youth on a Fri night and are very much in the Youthsurge model of ministry (what do you expect when the Director of Youthsurge was my predecessor!). We are working hard to make transition from Friday night to Sunday night as easy as possible esp trying to work hard at doing young adults ministry well.
I would say though on one point above
'setting up as a stand alone church, which you would then assume need not necessarily fellowship with other groups, would also communicate each of the above things'.
It all depends on the culture you set up for your group. There could be great possibilities for the youth to have great fellowship across other groups. But it does depend whether you want to have a 'village' type church were everyone knows each other.