I grew up in a church which by every decent definition you'd care to attempt, would qualify as evangelical. Not being an Anglican church, I knew nothing of hymnbooks. Well, I guess I did, but it wasn't a hymnbook, it was Mission Praise. In terms of a name, Mission Praise doesn't really mean very much, except it was probably the shortest unique combination of words that the publishers could come up with, to avoid plagiarism.
In terms of music, I would call my church 'progressive conservative'. For example, we sang Shine Jesus Shine, but only a couple of times a year, and only a few times through on each occasion. Furthermore, we were singing Emu songs before Emu existed. Rob Smith led mission teams to our church, and to me was the closest I ever came to a Christian celebrity (I don't count Steve Grace because I think I associated him more in the 'guys with long hair' group rather than the 'Chritian celeb' group). So our church sang the latest songs, yet mostly in a reserved 'stoic white people' kind of way. The exception was our youth service where the occasional rhythmic clapping would be employed where the song suggested its inclusion (Blind man sat by the road and he cried, anyone?)
So as part of this progressive conservatism we often sang the Hill-song, Shout to the Lord. It was oft repeated and I would belt out this particular belter as if God's hearing was dependent upon my shouting. I'm singing it right now in my head. Anyways, when a Christian friend from church (whose beloved family is perhaps the closest our church family came to having a 'charismatic bent') offered me the lend of a Hillsong album, I was stoked. The impetus for the lending was hearing another Hill-song that I liked - the song was called Every Day - at an ISCF camp.
Every Day became my favourite Christian song, even though we didn't sing it at our church. I'm pretty sure this was during the earlier days of music piracy, and I think I illegally copied the album to my computer. A few weeks later, I was sharing the discovery of this song with a fellow leader from another church (Southern Cross Presbyterian) at the famed North Coast Christian Youth Convention.
He asked me,
I'm extremely thankful for that conversation (shout out to long lost pal Jason Smart), because had I moved to Sydney without this chat and its subsequent investigations, I have little doubt I would have found myself heading along just to 'check out' Hillsong. The theological robustness of my home church would I hope have started alarm bells ringing had I went along, but perhaps not. With one of the overwhelming characteristics of Hillsong being a failure to say much of anything, I may not have found much of anything to disagree with.
These hypotheticals have limited value, but I often do wonder what my faith would be like, and who it would be in, had I ended up at Hillsong church.
But back to my opening proposition. Herein lies the problem. Hillsong and their theological distinctives were, in my mind, implicitly endorsed with the singing of Hill-songs at my dear home church. Had I compared the things taught at each, the vastly different theology and priorities would have been clear. Had I asked the question, I'm certain the differences would be explained. But nonetheless the endorsement had been there.
This word of personal testimony is behind my long held conviction that its best for evangelical churches not to sing Hill-songs. I'm certain I share more in common theologically with Hillsong than some other authors of popular songs. Yet the difference lies with the inextricable connection between Hill-songs and Hillsong church. This song/theology connection just isn't present with other songs. Of course, the theology is always in the songs, but provided the lyrical content is broad enough to be in agreement with my personal convictions, the automatic association between song and theological movement isn't present.
But I wonder if Hill-songs today are what they used to be. They have become so widely sung that they are no longer immediately identifiable with Hillsong church. Furthermore, the broader range of Hillsong songwriters means the 'big names' that were synonymous with Hill-songs are not as obvious these days.
Okay, I've run out of steam.
You can work out if I have a point behind these ramblings. There's probably one in there somewhere.
I guess I should finish with the obligatory (yet no less heartfelt) acknowledgement that I have many good friends who attend Hillsong, and I'm certain the church contains many brothers and sisters in Christ.
Speaking of Christian friends - and its kind of related to what I've said - I have an older, wiser family friend who gently suggested I shouldn't criticise Hillsong because when the Muslims take over, pentecostals will be standing beside us. The counsel perhaps delves a little unhelpfully into paranoid media beat-ups, and its probably not the best advice I've ever received about determining the limits of fellowship, but it was heartfelt.
So as part of this progressive conservatism we often sang the Hill-song, Shout to the Lord. It was oft repeated and I would belt out this particular belter as if God's hearing was dependent upon my shouting. I'm singing it right now in my head. Anyways, when a Christian friend from church (whose beloved family is perhaps the closest our church family came to having a 'charismatic bent') offered me the lend of a Hillsong album, I was stoked. The impetus for the lending was hearing another Hill-song that I liked - the song was called Every Day - at an ISCF camp.
Every Day became my favourite Christian song, even though we didn't sing it at our church. I'm pretty sure this was during the earlier days of music piracy, and I think I illegally copied the album to my computer. A few weeks later, I was sharing the discovery of this song with a fellow leader from another church (Southern Cross Presbyterian) at the famed North Coast Christian Youth Convention.
He asked me,
What do you like about it?
It's really catchy?
What about the words?
They're okay, I guess, but I haven't really thought about them.And I hadn't. But I'd been challenged and it pulled me up short. Now the song, from memory was only significant in its lyrical insignificance, but for me it revealed at gap in my theology.
I'm extremely thankful for that conversation (shout out to long lost pal Jason Smart), because had I moved to Sydney without this chat and its subsequent investigations, I have little doubt I would have found myself heading along just to 'check out' Hillsong. The theological robustness of my home church would I hope have started alarm bells ringing had I went along, but perhaps not. With one of the overwhelming characteristics of Hillsong being a failure to say much of anything, I may not have found much of anything to disagree with.
These hypotheticals have limited value, but I often do wonder what my faith would be like, and who it would be in, had I ended up at Hillsong church.
But back to my opening proposition. Herein lies the problem. Hillsong and their theological distinctives were, in my mind, implicitly endorsed with the singing of Hill-songs at my dear home church. Had I compared the things taught at each, the vastly different theology and priorities would have been clear. Had I asked the question, I'm certain the differences would be explained. But nonetheless the endorsement had been there.
This word of personal testimony is behind my long held conviction that its best for evangelical churches not to sing Hill-songs. I'm certain I share more in common theologically with Hillsong than some other authors of popular songs. Yet the difference lies with the inextricable connection between Hill-songs and Hillsong church. This song/theology connection just isn't present with other songs. Of course, the theology is always in the songs, but provided the lyrical content is broad enough to be in agreement with my personal convictions, the automatic association between song and theological movement isn't present.
But I wonder if Hill-songs today are what they used to be. They have become so widely sung that they are no longer immediately identifiable with Hillsong church. Furthermore, the broader range of Hillsong songwriters means the 'big names' that were synonymous with Hill-songs are not as obvious these days.
Okay, I've run out of steam.
You can work out if I have a point behind these ramblings. There's probably one in there somewhere.
I guess I should finish with the obligatory (yet no less heartfelt) acknowledgement that I have many good friends who attend Hillsong, and I'm certain the church contains many brothers and sisters in Christ.
Speaking of Christian friends - and its kind of related to what I've said - I have an older, wiser family friend who gently suggested I shouldn't criticise Hillsong because when the Muslims take over, pentecostals will be standing beside us. The counsel perhaps delves a little unhelpfully into paranoid media beat-ups, and its probably not the best advice I've ever received about determining the limits of fellowship, but it was heartfelt.

"I guess I should finish with the obligatory (yet no less heartfelt) acknowledgement that I have many good friends who attend Hillsong, and I'm certain the church contains many brothers and sisters in Christ."
ReplyDeleteThis sounds a lot like what racists say to justify their racism.
I'm not racist, I have black friends... but...
Also, on this note:
"Muslims take over, pentecostals will be standing beside us. The counsel perhaps delves a little unhelpfully into paranoid media beat-ups, and its probably not the best advice I've ever received about determining the limits of fellowship, but it was heartfelt."
My grandma is trying to figure out if she'd vote for a muslim or an atheist if they were running against each other.
"This sounds a lot like what racists say to justify their racism."
ReplyDeleteIt was tongue in cheek.
"My grandma is trying to figure out if she'd vote for a muslim or an atheist if they were running against each other."
I'd vote for an atheist. Because I think any disagreements would get more of a hearing. Though that is based on what I think is the kind of postmodern influence on atheistic philosophy - that even though they'd think I was stupid, I would have a right to hold onto and act upon said stupidity.
I would imagine a Muslim (and in turn a Muslim government) would be less likely to allow Christian dissent.
Perhaps more pertinent for the moment is would I vote for a Catholic or an atheist?
I'm a SydAng and I agree that Hillsong songs "have become so widely sung that they are no longer immediately identifiable with Hillsong church." But I think the only deciding factor in choosing a song for your church should be the song's theology (and quality) as opposed to the wider theology of the songwriters. I wouldn't have a clue what theology the songwriters at Emu subscribe to. I've never met any of them.
ReplyDeleteOne of the common arguments I have heard against singing Hill-songs is that here in Sydney we are directly 'competing' with Hillsong Church, and so should try and differentiate ourselves from them and point out their errors. Singing their songs would be somehow showing our support for Hillsong Church. Ergo, you can sing them if you are outside of Sydney, but not if you are a Church in this city.
ReplyDeleteThe same people who use this argument also point out that every time we sing a Hill-song we are effectively helping to finance the ministry of Hillsong Church, via the CCLI licensing system.
I'm not persuaded by either of these. Like Joshua, I think theology is the deciding factor. Particular songs should be weighed on their own merits, and not ruled out altogether because the person who wrote it happens to differ in their theology to us.
Hi Josh,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comment. I want to agree with your statement "the only deciding factor in choosing a song for your church should be the song's theology (and quality) as opposed to the wider theology of the songwriters", but I only agree to a point.
I have attended churches and have friends leading churches that are not too far from Hillsong. With the inevitable influence of Hillsong and the attractiveness of their big events, these pastors feel it is necessary to speak against aspects of their teaching which they by careful study and reflection, consider unbiblical, and potentially dangerous.
In this context, it would seem to me, highly hypocritical, not to mention confusing, to then happily sing Hill-songs.
I think there was a time where this same situation was spread much more widely - that is, me in my little country NSW town knew about this megachurch which made good music. I assume that meant it was a good church.
There are a thousand bad reasons I've heard for not singing Hill-songs. (e.g. Not financially support that church via the three cents they contribute via their CCLI license.) But I believe a good reason, would be in order to not endorse the teaching of the church, a lot of which I strongly object to.
I think my point was that, the endorsement of a wider theology (not within the lyrics) was an issue exclusively for Hillsong because of the church/song link, a problem which is not present in other songs, even though the same issue of questionable wider theology may be present.
Maybe some statements will help me clarify in my mind as well as yours what I think;
1. The primary method of deciding to sing a church song is its theology (as well as musicality etc)
2. Principle 1 may be overruled if there is a widely held endorsement of a wider theology through the singing of these songs.
3. I think Hillsong formerly qualified under principle 2, but perhaps no longer.
Tom, we were writing at the same time (?during class),
ReplyDeleteI'm with you on the money thing, but I think I disagree with you on the competing level (though I would use different language).
Because I was that guy who assumed the endorsement through the music. And I grew up in the country.
""This sounds a lot like what racists say to justify their racism."
ReplyDeleteIt was tongue in cheek."
So was my comment - or perhaps more pointing at the tongue poking into your cheek.
Here's one for you all;
ReplyDeleteIt's 5:37 on a Sunday night, and with just 23 minutes till the service is to kick off, news comes through that the preacher has been hit by a runaway bus driver's cat (the humanity!).
Panic ripples throughout the congregation. All the other staff are on holidays in the Bahamas. To make matters worse, it is discovered at 5:49 that the poor run down minister is out of action for 2 more weeks and the other staff have decided not to return from their sunny oasis for another year.
They would need to find a preacher to fill in for the next few weeks. No one in the congregation had the guts to do it, and a perpetual snow blizzard kept ministers from other areas from guest preaching (trust me, it's true).
But little Jimmy had an idea - "I was watching Youtube during the week, and came across a sermon series by Brian Houston...it was a really good sermon series, nothing heretical, the right emphasis, faithful exegesis, passionate message - maybe we could just play that over the overhead for the next few weeks? What do you think guys?"
Well guys?
A quick thought to add to the mix: Does refusing to sing Hillsong songs say more, and have more implications, than simply stopping the hypothetical 'naive Izaac' situation happening again?
ReplyDeleteI'm just wondering if it does send out some other messages which aren't good, and that stopping the 'danger' of the hypothetical situation posed isn't the only flow-on effect of such a decision. What do you reckon?
"What do you think guys?"
ReplyDeleteUsing video technology!?!?!?!? BURN THE HERETIC!!!!!
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:P
Kutz,
ReplyDelete"I'm just wondering if it does send out some other messages which aren't good, and that stopping the 'danger' of the hypothetical situation posed isn't the only flow-on effect of such a decision. What do you reckon?"
I do tend to speak in extremes. But nevertheless, you are right in that there are deeper issues communicated by refusing to sing their songs. Every action has deeper beliefs driving it.
The question is whether this is a good message to send.
The extremes I speak in would have you believe either
a. You sing and endorse, or
b. You ban and create a conversation about the merits/dangers.
But as is often the case, there is a
c. Judge each song on its merit, and still offer loving critique where it will be helpful for your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
But, underlying my post is the question - is it hypocritical to have serious questions about the theology of Hillsong, as well as personal experience of the impact their teaching has on individuals, and then still display Hillsong each week on your powerpoint?
I'm hearing others say 'yes'.
I say 'no'.
There is a deeper issue here. Am I suggesting I am out of fellowship with Hillsong members? Not at all, though I understand it could be interpreted that way.
Perhaps this reveals my particular bent, influenced by my history as 'ignorant Izaac', which emphasises caution. I'm saying it would be more helpful to come from no implied endorsement and discover the extent of our shared belief in Jesus, as opposed to assuming we're on the same page.
Now, where am I wrong...
Time is running out for the poor little church people...they need a response fast!
ReplyDeleteBecome a Mars Hill satellite church??
ReplyDeleteAddress the issue Cowling!
ReplyDeleteEveryone's avoiding it, (or just joking about it) but I think it hits at the heart of the issue.
(Everyone means 2 people by the way...and all you silent observers too I guess...)
Should the church put the youtube Houston up on the screen for those few weeks or not?
Acevedo,
ReplyDeleteI don't think so. Unless we're assuming that there are no other sermons on YouTube and no knowledge of Brian Houston's normal theological bent - playing two non-dodgy sermons is essentially an endorsement of him as a preacher - and I don't think I'd do that.
I think the way I'd approach the question is "would I have this guy preach in real life in my church" and the answer to that, with Brian, is no. I wouldn't. I can't see how it being on YouTube, and being one example of a sermon that is faithful to the word, changes the answer. Can't little Jimmy google Mark Driscoll?
I think one of the dangers we need to beware though is of blanket 'prohibitions' warnings.
ReplyDeleteMy main concern is that we teach people to bar churches and people rather than teachings and doctrines. Whilst doctrine can't be artificially separated from the ones proclaiming them, it seems that many of our problems in churches stem from a lack of discernment and these kind of 'blanket' banning doesn't teach people to discern.
We can teach people that 'Hillsong' are the baddies but what about when we're gone and the next version of error comes along? Will the sheep be equipped to discern the wolf from the shepherds or will they require us to point out every thought set against Christ?
I see many people hearing us (whether we implicitly mean this or not) say that all Hillsong is bad (music,theology... the works) and therefore stay away. Then they go along or listen to a CD and stumble across 10% of it being really spot on or helpful and therefore extrapolate that all of what their pastor originally said was either naive or mistaken and then embrace Hillsong wholeheartedly.
I think we need to journey with our people in showing them what is helpful and unhelpful about Hillsong. Discernment and wisdom is needed for this and it's something we don't like because we are lazy and like things to be black and white.
Thoughts?
Matt (Acevedo)
ReplyDeleteI agree with Nathan.
Hi J,
Your discernment principle is a really helpful one.
But again, my experience is that churches who tend to remain silent on analysis of well-known teaching like that of Hillsong, and thus fail in some respects to teach discernment, are also the ones most likely to wholeheartedly embrace Hill-songs. Those churches who helpfully critique the Hillsong theological understanding, also tend to be the ones who don't play their songs as this would appear hypocritical.
There are many ways to fail to help people discern.
1. To have unchallengeable blanket bans.
2. To remain silent on an issue.
3. To imply theological agreement through deep expressions of fellowship.
I am arguing that historically, Hill-songs are an expression of fellowship with Hillsong church, due to the clear relationship between song and church. (An issue not present with other songs)
Thus many churches risk falling into category 3. Now by suggesting a ban there is a danger of falling into category 1.
The original post was for the purposes of questioning whether the statement, "There is an inseparable link between Hillsong and Hill-songs" is still a valid proposition. And thus if some bans that people have had could be re-evaluated.
On people hearing "all Hillsong is bad", there is a big danger of that. And we need to keep asking what we can teach each other. However, most people suggest not to go to Hillsong for theology, go to them for music and 'worship'. And there are definitely things everyone can learn from them in these areas, as well as others. However, we must also ask how is the theology driving the practice? Which oftentimes would lead me to question whether the practice is worth adopting.
But Hillsong church and its members are far from the enemy, even if people choose to move from your gathering to theirs. Rather these people are our brothers and sisters in Christ. When it comes to people I know from Hillsong, I'm not trying to convert these people, but I am trying to protect them from false expectations that would undermine trust in Jesus.
True,
ReplyDeleteI must say, I found the songs at Hillsong Conf recently the most Biblical part of the whole thing. The music lyrics (which have substantially improved - but still have a long way to go) spoke of the cross more than the gangrenous preacher.
I've been struggling to think through this issue in light of my sister and bro-in-law going to Hillsong and having to talk with them about what I do and don't like about it. I've found to attack it as a whole just gets them defensive and so I try to give credit where it's due but also point out what's unhelpful. I think it's different as a leader/pastor of a congregation and agree that fellowship implies agreement and we need to be more explicit if we do sing such songs. I've noticed EQUIP, KCC and the like using Hillsong in the past year with no 'disclaimers' and this makes me wary.
Thanks for provoking some great thoughts Izaac!
See you on the handball courts!
Jimbo
I had a similar experience (?the right word) a few years back at Hillsong Conference. TD Jakes was speaking (I wouldn't call it preaching).
ReplyDeleteI nearly wanted to go back this year just to see if he'd do the next verse after Gen 1:14 where God creating 'seasons' (because you're coming into a season of prosperity. You get it? God created seasons, and so you have a season coming where God is gonna give you lots of money.)
Now Christians tend to be gracious and generous and inclusive as their default position on fellowship. This is right, and proper and good. But back at SPUR conference last year, I remember Greg Lee encouraging us not to critique, but to ask what we can learn from Hillsong. It was a good challenge for me personally. But then on reflection, the battles I was fighting at uni were not "be gracious" battles, they were "be discerning" battles. More people were undiscerning rather than overly critical.
I thought his point was valid but an incorrect read of where most people are at. That is, amongst vocational evangelical ministers, there may be too much criticism. But amongst the rest of the congregation there remains a need for greater critical reflection.
I also have family dear to me who either attend or are heavily influenced by Hillsong music and teaching. I have been unloving in my criticism in the past (though motivated by love). I just need to keep getting the conversation back to the Bible and how to read it.
(the following rant is not directed at any one in this comment section)
ReplyDeleteSo,
If we wouldn't put a good faithful and powerful Houston sermon up on the screen, and certainly wouldn't have him come and give that sermon live in our churches - (because we don't want to approve of his *usual* ministry) - why would we put a good faithful, powerful Hillsong song up on the screen and thereby approve of their *usual" ministry? If you say that singing their good songs is not approving of their ministry, you've got to equally show that playing their good sermons is not approving of that ministry.
If we can't allow the good sermon through due to surrounding factors, why would we allow a good song through - even a great song - due to the surrounding factors?
The real question then is this - are the 'surrounding factors' of hillsong songs acceptable? Absolutely not. It's music idolatry. If you don't approve of that, then you won't do things that in any way endorse it.
How ridiculous to say one minute, 'we stand against hillsong's theology and practice of church music', and then the next stand and sing 'shout to the lord'? Darlene wrote that for Hillsong. She wrote that in that way because she believes in the hillsong methodology. You can't split them! You're mad if you try. And you're mad if you think you're not endorsing their theology of music just because you're plugging the music into a different context.
The best, simplest, clearest and most unmissable method of standing against the theology of corporate worship endorsed by Hillsong is to simply stop singing their music in your church. People won't miss it.
Otherwise, let's start singing the great and faithful JW hymns, and the beautiful and powerful Catholic hymns. In fact, why not take your church to the first six song segment at hillsong and then take them out to give them your sermon?
Absurd.
Why is everyone so keen to get along like best buddies with a ministry that we wouldn't ever want our people to move to or to embrace? The issue is not Christian unity and encouraging our brothers and sisters at Hillsong - the issue is the place of public rebuke for an unfaithful church, and their unfaithful leaders who have wandered far from the Word of God and the gospel of truth. Paul would have no time for Houston and co., he would go a-wall at them.
Yes he'd love them too, but have a read of 1 Cor. and 'compare the pair' of churches before us.
(Again, this post not directed at anyone here)
Maybe we're 'redeeming' the songs?
ReplyDeleteBut I think my original point remains. I'm sure there's lots of staunch Arminians whose songs we sing, but the distance between them and us means we don't think twice about the songs.
ReplyDeleteI suggested Hillsong were a special case, because of the link between church and songs, but was questioning that if the distance once again increased, would we sing songs like others whom we have no idea of their theological emphasis (apart from agreeing with their lyrics).
Agreed. If I had been born and raised in eastern Mongolia, and then one day, a sheet of Hillsong music fell from the sky (I of course wouldn't know anything about such a church) - and this song was faithful and good, would I play it in my church? Sure. Absolutely. I'd be thanking God every day for whoever this 'Hillsong' bunch of people were for writing such a good and faithful song.
ReplyDeleteBut we're as far from that situation as I am from, well...Mongolia.